strawberries: It's no worse than throwing away audio tapes after you promised the IRB you'd keep them in a locked drawer for 3 years under the protection of a rabid rottweiler and then erase them and bury the erased tapes under a land-fill (hypothetically).
orange ina: A scholar in my field wrote a book chapter where she said that her IRB told her what and how she could teach her qualitative methods class. I totally agree that IRBs should not be in charge of determining what is important/ worth it research and what isn't.
fraud: OMG, we totally need an IRB PTSD support group.
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Posted by thistle to academicsecret at 10/01/2006 01:19:46 AM
Saturday, September 30, 2006
[academicsecret] 10/01/2006 01:15:07 AM
I think I might have had to name this post "Things that make you go homocidal".
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Posted by thistle to academicsecret at 10/01/2006 01:15:07 AM
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Posted by thistle to academicsecret at 10/01/2006 01:15:07 AM
[academicsecret] 9/30/2006 11:50:51 PM
I think that "little" episodes like the one you describe are directly related to your second point.
While I've never been a Pollyanna, I don't think I realized until I took my job that there was this long of a road ahead of us in the quest for gender equality.
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Posted by fraud, in denim to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 11:50:51 PM
While I've never been a Pollyanna, I don't think I realized until I took my job that there was this long of a road ahead of us in the quest for gender equality.
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Posted by fraud, in denim to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 11:50:51 PM
[academicsecret] 9/30/2006 09:14:10 PM
anonymous,
thanks for commenting, and let me clarify what I meant by the following:
when one is entering a grad program, they should have a) done well in undergrad, b) have demonstrated a capacity to conduct effective research, and c) ability to write well.
a) i do not believe that there needs to be a clearcut numerical equivalent between grading in two countries, but usually, one can clearly tell if a student has done well or not in undergrad. And wether a student does well will also be indicated in their letters of reccomendation, as well as in their writing skills and proposed research.
b) by capacity to effectively conduct research, I do not mean have to have already conducted successful research in the field -- of course that is a plus. but in most research related phd programs, one needs to write out what their interests are, a plan of proposed research, and how their skills will be appropriate to sucessfully complete this.
I am sure that your statement of purpose did not only demonstarte your ability to write well, but also your interest in that particular field, and your proposed plan of study/research/purpose, and I am sure that the fact that you did well, as I assume, in undergrad, also played a part.
I personally do not agree with standardized tests as they do not measure many of the important things needed to succeed in grauate school or to effectively carry out research under a grant.
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Posted by strawberries to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 09:14:10 PM
thanks for commenting, and let me clarify what I meant by the following:
when one is entering a grad program, they should have a) done well in undergrad, b) have demonstrated a capacity to conduct effective research, and c) ability to write well.
a) i do not believe that there needs to be a clearcut numerical equivalent between grading in two countries, but usually, one can clearly tell if a student has done well or not in undergrad. And wether a student does well will also be indicated in their letters of reccomendation, as well as in their writing skills and proposed research.
b) by capacity to effectively conduct research, I do not mean have to have already conducted successful research in the field -- of course that is a plus. but in most research related phd programs, one needs to write out what their interests are, a plan of proposed research, and how their skills will be appropriate to sucessfully complete this.
I am sure that your statement of purpose did not only demonstarte your ability to write well, but also your interest in that particular field, and your proposed plan of study/research/purpose, and I am sure that the fact that you did well, as I assume, in undergrad, also played a part.
I personally do not agree with standardized tests as they do not measure many of the important things needed to succeed in grauate school or to effectively carry out research under a grant.
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Posted by strawberries to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 09:14:10 PM
[academicsecret] 9/30/2006 08:53:23 PM
The GRE's are pretty bad, I agree. Two students from my department both applied for NSF grants. The one with really good GRE scores got it, though he was not a promising candidate, and not great at fieldwork. The other was amazing at theory and fieldwork, but bad at tests. Valuing them too highly is definitely a risk.
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Posted by Anonymous to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 08:53:23 PM
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Posted by Anonymous to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 08:53:23 PM
[academicsecret] 9/30/2006 08:50:40 PM
anonymous,
thanks for commenting, and let me clarify what I meant by the following:
when one is entering a grad program, they should have a) done well in undergrad, b) have demonstrated a capacity to conduct effective research, and c) ability to write well.
a) i do not believe that there needs to be a clearcut numerical equivalent between grading in two countries, but usually, one can clearly tell if a student has done well or not in undergrad. And wether a student does well will also be indicated in their letters of reccomendation, as well as in their writing skills and proposed research.
b) by capacity to effectively conduct research, I do not mean have to have already conducted successful research in the field -- of course that is a plus. but in most research related phd programs, one needs to write out what their interests are, a plan of proposed research, and how their skills will be appropriate to sucessfully complete this.
I am sure that your statement of purpose did not only demonstarte your ability to write well, but also your interest in that particular field, and your proposed plan of study/research/purpose, and I am sure that the fact that you did well, as I assume, in undergrad, also played a part.
I personally do not agree with standardized tests as they do not measure many of the important things needed to succeed in grauate school or to effectively carry out research under a grant.
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Posted by anonymous to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 08:50:40 PM
thanks for commenting, and let me clarify what I meant by the following:
when one is entering a grad program, they should have a) done well in undergrad, b) have demonstrated a capacity to conduct effective research, and c) ability to write well.
a) i do not believe that there needs to be a clearcut numerical equivalent between grading in two countries, but usually, one can clearly tell if a student has done well or not in undergrad. And wether a student does well will also be indicated in their letters of reccomendation, as well as in their writing skills and proposed research.
b) by capacity to effectively conduct research, I do not mean have to have already conducted successful research in the field -- of course that is a plus. but in most research related phd programs, one needs to write out what their interests are, a plan of proposed research, and how their skills will be appropriate to sucessfully complete this.
I am sure that your statement of purpose did not only demonstarte your ability to write well, but also your interest in that particular field, and your proposed plan of study/research/purpose, and I am sure that the fact that you did well, as I assume, in undergrad, also played a part.
I personally do not agree with standardized tests as they do not measure many of the important things needed to succeed in grauate school or to effectively carry out research under a grant.
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Posted by anonymous to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 08:50:40 PM
[academicsecret] 9/30/2006 07:47:37 PM
I'm a foreigner (being English), and I found the verbal section of the GRE had questions that didn't make sense to me, for purely cultural reasons. It wasn't quite on the level of the sub-$1000 questions on Who Wants to be a Milliner, which basically test whether you grew up in the US, but it wasn't far off.
That said, my personal experience makes me worry about this (from the original post):
"when one is entering a grad program, they should have a) done well in undergrad, b) have demonstrated a capacity to conduct effective research, and c) ability to write well."
I got taken on despite (a) being untestable (there being no clear equivalence in undergrad grading norms between the US and UK) and (b) being irrelevant to my undergrad (though not the grad course I was applying to). The only thing I could fall back on, really, was writing well, and the only evidence for this was my Statement of Purpose and my GRE score. I fear that using the criteria mentioned here I might have been worse off, as a foreigner, than under the current scheme.
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Posted by Anonymous to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 07:47:37 PM
That said, my personal experience makes me worry about this (from the original post):
"when one is entering a grad program, they should have a) done well in undergrad, b) have demonstrated a capacity to conduct effective research, and c) ability to write well."
I got taken on despite (a) being untestable (there being no clear equivalence in undergrad grading norms between the US and UK) and (b) being irrelevant to my undergrad (though not the grad course I was applying to). The only thing I could fall back on, really, was writing well, and the only evidence for this was my Statement of Purpose and my GRE score. I fear that using the criteria mentioned here I might have been worse off, as a foreigner, than under the current scheme.
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Posted by Anonymous to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 07:47:37 PM
[academicsecret] 9/30/2006 06:28:28 PM
Oh yeah, the ETS is one big evil force. They are completely ridiculous. And yes, Apri put it well, it's a much better measure of class and status than anything else. Oh, and national origin, since no other country I know of tests students in this way so you're adding a significant handicap to foreigners' changes of doing even remotely well.
So yes, it's a BIG money-making machine, completely disgusting and should be taken less and less seriously as far as I'm concerned.
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Posted by Turquoise Stuff to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 06:28:28 PM
So yes, it's a BIG money-making machine, completely disgusting and should be taken less and less seriously as far as I'm concerned.
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Posted by Turquoise Stuff to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 06:28:28 PM
[academicsecret] 9/30/2006 06:24:51 PM
Fraud, your comment sums up very well the MAJOR problems with IRB. I mean, c'mon, this is nuts! (And I can't believe they killed your project.)
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Posted by Turquoise Stuff to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 06:24:51 PM
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Posted by Turquoise Stuff to academicsecret at 9/30/2006 06:24:51 PM
Friday, September 29, 2006
[academicsecret] 9/29/2006 08:02:36 PM
Thistle, that is really funny.. and potentially usable so thanks for considering my request.
It's true though, there have been times when I have revised the way I tell stories, because the narrative would've reminded my colleagues that they're my parents' age and I didn't want to take the conversation in that direction.
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Posted by Turquoise Stuff to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 08:02:36 PM
It's true though, there have been times when I have revised the way I tell stories, because the narrative would've reminded my colleagues that they're my parents' age and I didn't want to take the conversation in that direction.
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Posted by Turquoise Stuff to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 08:02:36 PM
[academicsecret] 9/29/2006 05:15:07 PM
I have had my share of similar IRB frustrations. In fact, the best project I ever formulated (in my humble opinion) died on an IRB conference table. Luckily, that was my old insitution and my new one seems a bit more laid back.
There's evidence, though, that I suffer PTSD from those previous experiences: the other day, when I learned that I had cleared my most recent IRB hurdle, I was happier than learning a recent manuscript was accepted for publication. That's really, really sad.
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Posted by fraud, in denim to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 05:15:07 PM
There's evidence, though, that I suffer PTSD from those previous experiences: the other day, when I learned that I had cleared my most recent IRB hurdle, I was happier than learning a recent manuscript was accepted for publication. That's really, really sad.
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Posted by fraud, in denim to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 05:15:07 PM
[academicsecret] 9/29/2006 03:45:50 PM
At the time, I made a comment about not teaching that day. A colleague, to whom the comment was also addressed, went with the stare-of-death. I'm not actually sure that there _is_ anything we could have said. I _do_ look young, so it's not an unusual comment, but I've never had it repeated like that.
As to the latter incident, we've mentioned it to several people, and when I have coffee with the Dean later, I'll tell him, too.
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Posted by Chartreuse Circe to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 03:45:50 PM
As to the latter incident, we've mentioned it to several people, and when I have coffee with the Dean later, I'll tell him, too.
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Posted by Chartreuse Circe to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 03:45:50 PM
[academicsecret] 9/29/2006 03:04:45 PM
I think we could start a whole separate blog about IRB issues. I'm thinking that you're not at my institution if your exempt forms only add up to about 10 pages. OUCH. Yeah, that's my plight. I think ours is more around 15-20. On the one hand, I can see how they would want to check about exemption to some extent, but you're absolutely right to ridicule the issues associated with exemption being linked to an elaborate process of approval.
One point about your proposed alternate questions. While I can see how they can be seen as funny, if you want to hear the absolutely ridiculous IRB twist on them, here ya go. An IRB that considers itself qualified to determine the scientific value of whatever project to which they have no professional ties and so can actually deny you the right to run a project because they happen to think that it's not worth subjects' time. This hasn't happened to me, but the mere idea that I have to justify in fifty thousand ways why my project matters to people who don't have PhDs in my field really annoys me.
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Posted by Orange Ina to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 03:04:45 PM
One point about your proposed alternate questions. While I can see how they can be seen as funny, if you want to hear the absolutely ridiculous IRB twist on them, here ya go. An IRB that considers itself qualified to determine the scientific value of whatever project to which they have no professional ties and so can actually deny you the right to run a project because they happen to think that it's not worth subjects' time. This hasn't happened to me, but the mere idea that I have to justify in fifty thousand ways why my project matters to people who don't have PhDs in my field really annoys me.
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Posted by Orange Ina to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 03:04:45 PM
[academicsecret] 9/29/2006 08:49:22 AM
is it bad that i usually don't give out the information sheet but explain it instead?
even though i say that i give it out? when you work with the ppl i work with, the last thing they want to see is an official looking paper. b/c then there is no reason to trust you...
by the way, this is all hypotheical and not really true, and please don't tell on me.
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Posted by strawberries to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 08:49:22 AM
even though i say that i give it out? when you work with the ppl i work with, the last thing they want to see is an official looking paper. b/c then there is no reason to trust you...
by the way, this is all hypotheical and not really true, and please don't tell on me.
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Posted by strawberries to academicsecret at 9/29/2006 08:49:22 AM
Thursday, September 28, 2006
[academicsecret] 9/28/2006 11:09:17 PM
Sorry you experienced this.
So here is a question, to take this in a pro-active direction (not that there's anything wrong with your post!).
I'm wondering, what - if anything - would be a good reaction in such a situation? I'm happy to read humorous responses, but I would love to read some that are realistic, if available.
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Posted by Turquoise Stuff to academicsecret at 9/28/2006 11:09:17 PM
So here is a question, to take this in a pro-active direction (not that there's anything wrong with your post!).
I'm wondering, what - if anything - would be a good reaction in such a situation? I'm happy to read humorous responses, but I would love to read some that are realistic, if available.
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Posted by Turquoise Stuff to academicsecret at 9/28/2006 11:09:17 PM
Wednesday, September 27, 2006
[academicsecret] 9/27/2006 11:58:55 PM
Yup, every time somebody tells me that feminism isn't needed any more, that we can do away with affirmative action and keep the numbers of women and minorities growing, I want to hit them. Hard.
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Posted by Chartreuse Circe to academicsecret at 9/27/2006 11:58:55 PM
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Posted by Chartreuse Circe to academicsecret at 9/27/2006 11:58:55 PM
[academicsecret] 9/27/2006 09:17:34 AM
OMG. I am so angry at this. And then at all the people who say that we are beyond sexism and racism.
I am sorry for you and your institution.
maybe we can send them an anonymous hey you are living in the 50's note to scare them into reality? after all, isn't this like a secret society? kidding of course...maybe.
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Posted by strawberries to academicsecret at 9/27/2006 09:17:34 AM
I am sorry for you and your institution.
maybe we can send them an anonymous hey you are living in the 50's note to scare them into reality? after all, isn't this like a secret society? kidding of course...maybe.
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Posted by strawberries to academicsecret at 9/27/2006 09:17:34 AM
Tuesday, September 26, 2006
[academicsecret] 9/26/2006 10:01:10 PM
I think you're spot-on, Kodachrome. We have some pretty major climate problems at my home institutation, and that's absolutely going to outweight the salary.
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Posted by Chartreuse Circe to academicsecret at 9/26/2006 10:01:10 PM
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Posted by Chartreuse Circe to academicsecret at 9/26/2006 10:01:10 PM
[academicsecret] 9/26/2006 08:57:38 AM
Those exams are a more reliable measure of class and status than actual ability.
i couldn't agree more!
and i can't believe they made you retake HS english...
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Posted by strawberries to academicsecret at 9/26/2006 08:57:38 AM
i couldn't agree more!
and i can't believe they made you retake HS english...
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Posted by strawberries to academicsecret at 9/26/2006 08:57:38 AM
Monday, September 25, 2006
[academicsecret] 9/26/2006 03:44:51 AM
I completely agree. Those exams are a more reliable measure of class and status than actual ability.
I remember transferring schools, a month after a few short stories of mine got published. When I took the all-essay English competency test, I failed.
Now, I'm not smug enough to think that publishing a couple dippy short stories in a couple dippy journals makes me the king of all language. But you'd think I would have at least passed out of remedial English at that point. But no, according to this school, I had to retake high school English. It's been a billion years since that, and I'm still puzzled.
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Posted by Apricot to academicsecret at 9/26/2006 03:44:51 AM
I remember transferring schools, a month after a few short stories of mine got published. When I took the all-essay English competency test, I failed.
Now, I'm not smug enough to think that publishing a couple dippy short stories in a couple dippy journals makes me the king of all language. But you'd think I would have at least passed out of remedial English at that point. But no, according to this school, I had to retake high school English. It's been a billion years since that, and I'm still puzzled.
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Posted by Apricot to academicsecret at 9/26/2006 03:44:51 AM
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